SUB2000...Serious PDW Or Just A Range Toy?

#141

@dave67 thanks for the comment. I am just a “piece in the puzzle” but I have a personal stake in this.

Not only does my son go to that school but I also work with the kids who have been relocated here under witness protection…like I said we are a rural dumping ground.

I hear the frustrations and concerns of not only the officers, but some teachers as well.

I use my membership in various local veterans groups to raise the funds to put in place the resources they need.

Problem in a nutshell is because of politics we will NOT take the practical, common-sense solution to this problem!

School district wants a $108 million dollar bond to build a new school and emplace security doors (Which they will then wedge open per school policy!)

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#142

I am sure I am preaching to the choir here, but why is it so difficult for the obvious solutions, to be the most political?

Gonna do an edit: I have been working on this project for OVER 3 YEARS! While I do not expect change to happen overnight this is bordering on negligence in my opinion.

I have presented facts from actual case shootings, LE response times, (including two school mass shootings in our own county) had LE presenters including the county sheriff and chief of PD.

And yet here we are…I need to find a way for cops to “hide” an effective firearm. Non shooters seem to think a pistol is good enough (I think they have seen too many movies). What they DO NOT UNDERSTAND is an active shooter is PREPARED and has the element of surprise and dictating the terms of the engagement.

…sigh

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#143

Why, in this world of computer design and exotic materials, doesn’t someone develop a “folding” barrel? Folds to one side of the receiver, stock folds on the other side. Like a hinged version of the Ruger take down, swing the barrel in place and twist a cammed latch or something, Have the bolt lock into the chamber like an AR to handle some of the pressure probs.

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#144

@xberet here you go!

foldar.com 7

(Courtesy of @Matt)

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#145

Yes! Thank you… now, imagine that in 9mm, heavier mass based rotating bolt head blow-back with side charging and recoil springs fully contained in receiver… that would give you ability to have a folding buttstock. Say 7" barrel, 7-8" receiver and folding extendable buttstock!!
I’m going back to that site now and see if they have read this and have changed their design to match…:relaxed:

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#146

@xberet well there is a reason 9mm has been the round of choice in short-barreled “subguns” for over a century now.

Many of the “rifle caliber” rounds (including the .22WMR) waste much of their energy and unburnt propellant outside of the barrel. (PMR30 for example)

That said, even out of a carbine barrel of 16" I doubt a 9mm will defeat even basic level II body armor…just something to consider.

I would rather have 5.56 with green-tip ammo for PDW situations than 9mm.

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#147
 A Folding SUB2000 (Gen II) is an adequate PDW if that's all you own or have available.  Plus it helps to use some premium JHP ammo in it.  However its never going to stack up against a rifle (like an AR-15 firing the 5.56mm or a Springfield Armory M1A with a .308/7.62 mm).  I have personally seen people hit with a 9mm and also hit with a 5.56 mm fired from an AR-15.  There is really no comparison.  The AR-15 was much more effective/devastating.  I have even seen people shot with a .30-30 rifle and a 12 gauge shotgun and these were more devastating.  
 However, the SUB2000 carbine occupies a place as a niche-type gun.  For urban/home defense, or as a Bug Out Bag weapon it folds up well and it can be stowed in your back pack.  Plus it can be used with other mags like those from a Glock 17/19 9 mm.  As such, it has value in its design (if a person wants to have a pistol that fires the same caliber as their handgun etc.).  In the real world, most civilian (and police) shootings occur within 7 yards (21 feet or less).  This is the actual and statistical distance for "true self defense shootings."  Considering this fact, it really doesn't matter if your SUB2000 Gen II carbine is effective on real human threats at 100 + yards.  It will certainly work at real CQB distances for self-defense.  Plus a person can also mount a LED weapons light on it (the same one that fits your favorite pistol).
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#148

Hey @det902 haven’t seen you around before, so welcome to MCARBO Forum! What the heck did you do composing your post that I had to flick across the page sideways to read it??:thinking:

Anyway hope to see ya around some more!

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#149

Quoted so I could put down the mouse and finish reading.

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#150

Thank you! I knew it was long but not that long!!:sweat_smile:

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#151

[quote=“Johnksg, post:142, topic:2779”]
And yet here we are…I need to find a way for cops to “hide” an effective firearm. Non shooters seem to think a pistol is good enough (I think they have seen too many movies). What they DO NOT UNDERSTAND is an active shooter is PREPARED and has the element of surprise and dictating the terms of the engagement.

…sigh

I hope this wont just seem like rhetorical response to the obvious.
Given all of the hard, bottom line facts that are not only possibilities but proven past realities, I like you am baffled at some of the current thinking.

How is being uncomfortable with an unconcealed weapon in view or some inconsequential thing someone might find personally offensive, comparable to or a worthy consideration against having the best protection and defense possible, ready and in hand…
And to tie the hands and abandon anyone in a security, first line of defense, first responder role, with inadequate tools to give them the ability of holding their own, is just plain unconscionable IMO.

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#152

@jeffing65 I agree with you 100%

Same people have no issues with properly armed security, EXCEPT when it comes to our schools.

“More guns wont solve the problem,” or “we don’t want to create a negative atmosphere” , and the most ludicrous “we want students to feel safe at school.”

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#153

Thanks. I normally don’t add comments and generally I just read what others have to say. In this topic I just felt that there were a few salient issues that needed to be considered.

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#154

Hard to believe!! I dont want this to be a political reply but I believe it does pertain to the s2k role in the discussions.
Something I have thought. It strikes me at least partly as a syndrome? symptom? of today’s perception, and use of our public schools as babysitting service. With that mentality comes unproductive input more from a idealistic, self entitled point of view, (or the belief you should have a say) and less equipped for the harsh nature of real world solutions.
Somehow our educational system has lost its self identity and independent authority.
When I went to school there were still rules of respect, behavior, and dress. Today it is toothless and at the mercy of every whine and accusation of any kind.
So now here we are discussing this because those like you are looking for solutions and options to the problem.

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#155

Or, just let “We the People” carry on school grounds. Here in Utah, I can legally carry into a kindergarten class room. I can carry (concealed) anywhere on public school grounds with a permit. And, state law says the school districts can’t to anything about it. When’s the last time anyone heard of a school shooting in Utah? Exactly. It works. :+1:

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#156

Greetings to all. I have been reading with interest all of your valued input. I would like to toss my two cents in. Briefly, 54 laps around the sun, junior NRA in high school with all the “dangles”. Military brat. One tour of duty Air Force (try not to hold that against me, my brothers all know we have the hottest military tail and chow!! =)) That being said. I live in central Fl and go visit my old man in South St Pete, I am very comfortable with my 1911 and a couple mags. ( Years ago). With the influx of population here it has become, well , worrisome. I have to drive for appx 1 to 1/12 hrs to get to my fathers house in Gulfport. Down I-4, the most dangerous road in the US I have found out. Cross over I75, pass through I275, Tampa, cross the bridge to St Pete then south to Gulf Port. I have had to modify my comfort level a tad. Would I take the Sub into combat? No offense to anybody but please don’t be silly. However, with the mcarbo mods and having intimate knowledge of the platform by revamping several for other owners. I find that the sub combined with my G19 make a reputable urbanish survival pkg. Kind of like jumper cables and a spare gas can in the car. There is likely no disputing the G19 for proven. I do like the added bonus of a .357carbine (ballistically speaking) should for some reason I need to work my way home from St Pete. I am a single dad of two. My “armory” is based on two premises. Efficiency and applied application. (As best as I can) SHTF, mobility is key. Having 10k rds of 556 is wonderful, that gives the aggressor appx 9k rds of free ammo when they overtake your position. Hint, have a case of ammo to throw in your get out of dodge transportation and perhaps another case cached. I prefer redundancy ( plz realize, just my opinion). I have a wonderfully light and accurate bolt action carbine that weighs next to nothing for sustenance. Perfectly capable for two or four legged at 200yds. Even with a magical Leupold, the best I can efficiently work with my peepers. This is backed up by a “sporting” rifle of the .30cal variety in case things get “sporty”. This is my premise with the sub and my G19. I can reach in my daily bag and whichever gun, mag, I grab, they all work! I truly do love the simple design of the sub. What would I do to make it supreme? Laugh if you will, but if I had access to and the skills, I would CNC either and aluminum alloy or even Ti “grip housing”. Would it then become a combat weapon? IMO, …no. Would it step up a notch in the “new” world of overpopulation, just trying to get to work and then back home. I think so. From all the input from you guys and much you tube videos I think in the end, the Sub is exactly what it was intended to be. Thank-you for your time and God Bless. If you don’t believe in God, thats ok, may God Bless you, more! =) Pyrat, out.

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#157

Oh hail yea @pyrat169! That was a dam good read first thing in the morning. Welcome to MCARBO Forum, you should come on here very often. I read your story, was riveted all along I-4 corridor. And I know it ain’t my grammaw’s FLA anymore. I have a G17. And a sub (with all the MCARBO goodies). Ten big sticks. I think I could make that run.:+1:

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#158

@Wedge we can carry at school with a valid chl. However, the court restricted that right for employees and volunteers.

By undergoing a background check to be a volunteer I lost my rights as a chl.

@jeffing65 school mentality has changes so much in past 30 years, even in the last 8 years since I retired as a teacher. Much of it has to do with the federalization of our schools and funding.

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#159

Well said. I’ve got a Sub/handgun pairing in .40, and testing the reliability of the Sub for defense, as well as the reliability of Promag extended mags. If both hold up well, then my thinking is the same as yours. The ability to fold the Sub, throw it and a handgun and a bunch of mags into a bag and know that you’re set, is awesome. If it proves itself I’ll use it for HD duties as well, less flash/concussion indoors, not too much overpenetration with HPs, etc.

Of course the Sub isn’t a “go to war” gun. Wasn’t intended to be. It was a “patrol rifle” before the resurgence of ARs and designed to be used in combo with a handgun.

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#160

@pyrat169 well stated sir! A sub fills a narrow role, not a combat weapon, but neither is a pistol IMO.

But both are what a civilian is likely to have on hand in any situation that arises outside of the home.

Concealability and ease of carry is their strengths. :+1:

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