SUB2000...Serious PDW Or Just A Range Toy?


@Wedge forgive me if I am wrong, but from the list of squadrons you posted in another thread you flew mostly ASW correct?

I am was “ground pounder for the wing” not familiar with your weapons loadout.

Did you have the M134 or the Dillon minigun?

Reason I ask is Mike once told me, he “wasn’t trying to change the world, just nibble around the edges to make it better”.

Couldn’t the same be said for the S2K?

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We did just about everything. ASW, ASUW, SAR, CSAR, dawn/dusk SSC patrol, forward FLIR/laser designator, pax/mail/cargo logistics bitch, etc. We even sometimes did plane guard (starboard D) for the carrier SH-60F helos even though we were always a det on small boys. We primarily carried (mission dependent) Mk46 torpedoes, Penguin anti-ship (ASUW) missile and Hellfires. Door mounted machine guns were the M-60 or the GAU-16, which is basically the M-2 .50 cal on a pintle mount. Pretty sure the newer MH-60R helos also carry some form of mini gun, too. We didn’t have that when I was in.

Now, back to PCC talk. :slight_smile:


If I had to guess, I’d say it’s just really not that large of a market overall. The PCC is definitely a niche firearm and sort of in the “tacticool” arena which a great many shooters aren’t, especially the FUDDs. Plus, as you and others have pointed out and rightly so, many would just rather take a “real” rifle over a PCC. Even if I trusted my SUB2000 100% for SHTF self-defense, I’d still rather just grab an AR pistol or even a regular AR rifle in 5.56.


I think this is a really awesome AR pistol along the lines of this discussion…


Yep. I have a 10.5 AR pistol with KAK brace that negates the subs concealability. I haven’t done it but I could add a law folder to make it even more compact.


Confession time. Even though I’d rather grab an AR pistol, I don’t currently have one. I should work on that. LOL


Built not bought :ok_hand:t2:


Interesting grip. And you got me with the finger circle thing, so I guess you owe me a punch. LOL


@Johnksg check out
They haven’t been around very long (meant to say)


@Matt thanks I just did. I was also looking at the mech tech upper for a glock, but I like this better!


@Matt we have some night matches coming up soon, I will be working with the PD squad so will have a chance to discuss some the options the members of the forum have given me.

Thank you all!


I bought my S2K for a truck gun. I quickly found mine to be unreliable so it never made it into my vehicle. It is one of my favorite range toys. Clearing it with every magazine is not a problem when nobody is shooting back. A member of my range decided to avoid the FTE issue by using +P but his gun blew up.

I would suggest a .223 pistol with one of the wrist braces. The .223 has less over penetration than the 9MM and with a short barrel even less so. An 8 1/2" barrel should give you concealability, and plenty of fire power.


@heatermanak ouch! Sorry to hear you have had such bad experiences with the S2K! I bought a couple of 2018 gen2’s so I am late to the party but I and my students have put several thousand rounds through each with 0 issues.

I like your thinking on the 5.56, I was considering the S2K for our SRO simply because it could fold into a bag and keep the school district happy. However now that I have seen at least two manufacturers of folding AR pistols I am leaning in that direction.

An SRO has a very challenging environment to operate in…long 50+ meter hallways with no cover as well as the demands of a PC school board that pays 1/2 salary.


If you get one of the good S2K’s you’re golden. The argument for the .223 being safer, in regards to over penetration, than your sidearm could tip the scales with the board. I don’t envy you the teaching ahead of you nor the bias that you have to overcome. Good luck!


@heatermanak my role is that of “trusted advisor” as I have a foot in both camps. I am a former teacher and serve on school council, participated and played a role in emergency planning, active shooter training, putting together egress kits, and installing emergency supplies for 720 faculty and students to shelter in place for 72 hours.

I am also the “money guy” I fundraise and write grants to get the funds to do all of this.

The problem as you identified is the school board. The PD would happily use their ARs they already have but the school is sensitive to the optics of an officer with a slung rifle. But given the tactical environment they must work in and the absolute lack of backup (we only have 9 officers on the entire force, and there may be one one duty and available to respond in an emergency.) Our SRO must have something better than a pistol because they are likely on their own for at least 30 minutes.

Now that trifold AR concealed in a slung bag could do the trick and keep the board happy!:grinning:


@Johnksg it’s becoming clear you have a very rational, well balanced perspective on this school protection issue. I commend you and hope you get all the support you need.

Here a couple of very pertinent videos on this subject IMO…


@TriggerHappy thanks I just watched the first video, it was very well stated!

I think the Texas church shooting brought this issue to the forefront of my community. If it can happen in a town of 500 people it sure as heck can happen in a community of 8,000!

But while I have made some inroads on some issues such as emergency planning and the need for logistic support and training of the staff, the active shooter issue has been a brick wall for me.

We have our fair share of liberals in Oregon.

Here is what I am facing.

Oregon CHL laws and definitions of public spaces allow someone with a chl to carry on campus. However a court ruling (doe v medford) allows schools to take away that right from staff and volunteers. (Which is exactly what they did under the cry that “more guns are not the answer!” ) Our staff whom have CHLs, myself included as a volunteer, are not allowed to carry while the general public can.

Meanwhile or SRO is an obvious target, has no long gun (locked in trunk of patrol car) and must operate in an environment where shots taken will be 50+ yards).

They are frustrated,as one said “an SRO gives the school a false sense of security”. Like most departments many of our officers only shoot once a year when they must qualify, but we have a couple of senior officers whom are “gun guys” (I RSO the local matches) who recognize the problem.

It will take at least 15 minutes to get a second officer on scene. It will take at least 30 minutes or longer to call in all of the officers who are off shift to respond. We are over an hour away from any other law enforcement response.

Add into that fact that we are a retirement community, lots of grandparents raising troubled kids because their parents are in jail, as well as being the favorite dumping ground for DHS to place kids in foster care. We have the LARGEST elementary school in the county for this reason!

In the end it all comes down to optics and PC b.s. I had to build enclosed cabinetry to “hide” the emergency supplies because some teachers and parents where offended by the sight of emergency toilets! Lol

The same goes for our SROs they need a rifle caliber weapon that can be concealed in a bag because the sight of a long gun in the hands of a uniformed officer scares a portion of the community!

Sorry for the long post brothers…I guess I needed to vent and your suggestions have been VERY helpful!


@Johnksg Vent all you want John, you seem like a wise man with an open mind and are taking in all your options.


@Johnksg All of your comments are informative and spot on. I work at a very small, rural school district of about 650 kids total in one of the largest county’s in the U.S. and our deputy’s are spread very thin and rely very much on inter agency support from municipal officers and even wildlife and forest service LEO’s as well. We once had an SRO but no longer - I would really like to see one brought back.

I am just up here in North Central Wa. state where we are still somewhat conservative politically and we are very fortunate to have this civilian handgun defense program provided to us through our Sheriff’s Dept. that you might find interesting.

I think one of the easiest things any school district could do would be to add tourniquet and chest seal emphasis to our first aid training because in the worst case event minutes are precious to the injured…


@TriggerHappy I included chest seals, Israeli compression bandages, clotting agent, and tourniquets to all of our first responder kits. I am still working with the FD to get training for the teachers though…

We had a “stop the bleed” course not long ago at our range for all Instructors and RSOs by the FD paramedics for free…but for some reason the SD is dragging its heels.

I appreciate all of the supportive comments and like you,those of us in rural areas have long response times and must be ready to fend for ourselves when seconds count.

Keep up the good info…I didn’t even know there was such a thing as receiver folding ARs (let alone 2 companies) until your guys input!