M*CARBO Brotherhood

S&W Model 10 vs. Alabama LE Handgun Qualification

Hi all! I’m dedicating this one to all you old-time Coppers and wheelgun aficionados. I hope you like it!

Happy Memorial Day Weekend!
Howard

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excellent as always hrfunk, and a question, since your doin wheel guns, if you get a chance can you do one with a Model 29 S&W with a 4" barrel?

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@hrfunk

Thanks for another great video, Howard.

It looks like all your shots were double action. How was the trigger pull? Do you know what the trigger pull weight is on that Model 10?

I am thinking about getting the Model 64 (stainless version of Model 10), for home defense with the assumption that I will need to fire all my shots double action. Good idea, or no?

Thanks for any feedback you can share with me on this.

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I don’t have a 4" 29. I have a 6" version, and a 4" 629 Mountain Gun, so one of those might have to pull stand-in duty.

Howard

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I didn’t check tne trigger pull of the model 10 with my scale, but it was on the heavy side. Probably 12 pounds or heavier. It was very smooth, though, and that helped a lot. I think the Model 64 would make you a dandy HD revolver. It’s simple to operate and reliable as the coming of dawn.

Howard

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Thank you very much for your feedback.

Alternate choices I am looking at are the Kimber K6S 3 inch and the Colt King Cobra 3 inch. Each of those choices makes for a shorter and lighter gun, but also capable of shooting magnums (though I probably wouldn’t shoot magnums in my home). They are also significantly more expensive than the Model 64. But, these two alternate choices have great trigger pulls (7 to 10 pounds double action).

That heavier trigger pull might keep me from buying the Model 64, though otherwise, I really like the gun. I have thought about having a gunsmith fix the trigger pull - making it lighter, but am concerned that might create legal liabilities if I ever have to use it in self defense. Do you think that is really much of an issue?

How did you get so good at shooting a handgun with such a heavy trigger pull?

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6" would be excellent my friend. Model 29 .44’s hold a special attraction for me. the N frame fits my hand, and ive never been bothered by the recoil.:+1::+1::+1:

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Ha, ha! I’ve been shooting revolvers for years and qualifying with various small=frame revovers for off-duty and back up duties. I guess that practice paid off! I don’t have a great deal of time right now, but I’ll waigh in later with some thoughts about liability concerns from modifying a trigger.

Howard

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Stay tuned! That one will be along in the near future.

Howard

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@hrfunk

Thank you, Howard.

Whenever you get the time, would be great.

I have been shooting revolvers for (many) years, too, and still can’t shoot as well as you!

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OK, I guess I’ll wade into this topic and try to answer your question. This may well stir up a hornet’s nest because liability is such a hot-button topic and everyone seems to have an opinion on these matters. I’ll preface my response by stating I am not an attorney and nothing below should be construed as legal advice. It is simply my opinion on the matter.

I’ll start be re-stating your question in a slightly different way: Will having a gunsmith lighten the trigger pull of a firearm increase your potential for being held liable in the event said firearm is used in a defensive encounter?

First, we have to consider what is meant by “liability.” There are two ways in which out legal system holds people accountable for acts that are deemed to be in violation of our laws. The first is criminal liability. In cases where it is believed that an individual has violated a criminal law, he or she can be charged with the commission of a crime and prosecuted by the state. If convicted, he or she is subject to a monetary fine, a period of incarceration, or both (other sentencing options apply depending upon the jurisdiction in question).

The second manner in which individuals are held accountable for harming another citizen is via a civil action. In a civil case, the plaintiff files suit against the defendant. If the defendant is ultimately deemed to be liable for whatever harm was caused to the plaintiff, that defendant will be required to pay “damages” to compensate the plaintiff for the value of such damages, and may be required to pay additional money for “Punitive” purposes.

Depending upon the circumstances of a particular case, an individual can be charged criminally, sued civilly, or both. In a criminal action, the state has to prove the defendant is guilty “beyond a reasonable doubt.” In a civil action, the plaintiff must prove by a “preponderance of evidence” that the defendant is liable for damages.

The reason I lead in with the information above is to set the stage for answering you question. For whatever reason, people like to make short, absolute, statements about legal issues that can literally take years to be decided by the courts. For example. How many times have you seen/heard it said that “Use of reloaded ammunition will get you sued if you use it in self defense”? Have you ever heard or read of a case anywhere in the country where someone was convicted of a crime or been held civilly liable solely because he or she used hand-loaded ammunition in a defensive shooting? I have not, and I’ve actually looked for any such cases. Usually what happens when this assertion is made, is the person uttering those words is repeating what he or she has heard from a friend/instructor/cop/attorney/etc. That doesn’t mean someone who used hand-loaded ammunition was never convicted of a crime or held liable for damages. It just means the ammunition was not the sole deciding fact.

In a defensive shooting, the only thing that SHOULD matter is that the person using force (i.e. shooting) was legally present wherever the force was used, and had a reasonable belief that he or she was in imminent danger of being seriously injured or killed by whoever that force was used against (there are myriad factors that come into play here, but I’m trying to condense this the best I can.).

So, let’s look at our revolver that has had the trigger lightened by a gunsmith. In a situation where the person who possessed that firearm used it in a clear-cut case of self defense, and no criminal charges, or civil suits are filed, I don’t see how the fact that the trigger was modified could have any impact on the event. Unfortunately, real life is sometimes not so “clear-cut.” If, due to the lighter trigger, the person firing the revolver accidentally fired a shot prematurely and it missed the bad guy but hit an innocent person, then that person is potentially subject to both criminal and civil liability and the fact that the trigger was altered may well become an issue.

Moreover, if it is ultimately determined that the shooting was not an act of self defense any alteration or enhancement of the firearm or ammunition could be used to prove malicious intent on the part of the shooter. In the end, the trigger’s modification will be only one fact and it may or may not be an issue depending upon all the rest of the facts gathered in the course of the investigation that follows the event.

Another consideration is the effect a “trigger job” might have on the revolver’s operation. I’ve seen more than one botched action job that has resulted in a DA revolver that will misfire routinely. This is why factory triggers usually err on the heavy side so the revolver will definitely fire if the need should arise. That’s not to suggest that there are not competent gunsmiths out there who can perform an action job that results in reliable ignition, but it is a caveat worth contemplating and it is definitely a reason to fire said revolver to be certain you can trust it.

For myself, I have revolvers with actions that have been tuned, and I carry them from time to time. My feeling is the improved trigger pull will aid in my accuracy if I should ever have to employ the revolver in a defensive encounter. Thereby, I will hopefully avoid missing a bad guy and striking anyone or anything unintended.

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to give you the best answer I could.

Howard

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@hrfunk (Howard)

Thank you very much for the detailed response.

So, in sum, best not to modify the trigger unless absolutely necessary to ensure reasonably accurate shooting, and shooting only when truly intended. So, the Model 10 or 64 would not be good choices for me, as I have trouble shooting handguns accurately that have heavy trigger pulls.

Thanks. This brief discussion with you is really helpful.

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You’re welcome!

Howard

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Great exchange @JohnB and @hrfunk! Great content all around from the video to subsequent discussion. Learned a lot, as I do from all our topics.:+1:

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Thank you! I’m glad it was helpful!

Howard

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@hrfunk Thank you for taking the time to explain this.

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You are most welcome!

Howard

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@hrfunk after i picked up my closet soured model 29/2 (crusty and rusty as well as out of time) it took me a while to find a gun bunny that specialized in S@W (and about 390 miles) I checked him out, talked with him a few times, and away we went.took him about 6 mos( a good guy has a backlog, 9 times out of 10) first he got it mechanically right, 3lb TP.I shot it for about 6 mos, changed the grip, and then it went back to him to tear back down so I could send off the bits for a satin finish(I am not a shiny kind of guy)
got the pieces back, last week, and i will drop em off in a week or so back to the same guy for re-assembly probably a few month wait. but in my eyes well worth it.
been waiting a long while for a model 29 :+1:

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Good for you! The Model 29 is a great revolver with a colorful history. It’s the brain-child of Elmer Keith and his legacy to the shooting world. It’s also a movie star in its own right. When you get it all done the way you want it, I think you’ll be quite happy!

Howard

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