M*CARBO Brotherhood

Red Dot Sight For Kel Tec SUB2000

@JoeFridaySays Your right different needs means different approaches. Think this old dog will stick with Irons, crosshairs, and red dots. The SeeAll just might meet some of my old eyes requirements, but too dang old to get new muscle memory. Heck, most of the muscle is gone now anyway. :grin:

4 Likes

@russ At my age so is the memory…

3 Likes

what were we talking about?:exploding_head:

4 Likes

@GOBLIN we were talking? And who are you?

4 Likes

me? the only hell my momma ever raised :smiling_imp::smiling_imp::smiling_imp::smiling_imp:

5 Likes

RED DOTS & ASTIGMATISM

I want to clarify the astigmatism issue especially as it pertains to red dot sights since many shooters suffer from astigmatism and do not realize it. Knowing this may help them or help you in advising a brother experiencing these problems. They may complain about the sight being blurry or “speckled” and may even return it as defective when the problem is actually their vision.

Admittedly astigmatism can be corrected with prescription lenses, but the correction is intended for normal viewing through the lenses. It simply does not work at the viewing angles we typically use when sighting a rifle although it sometimes can work with a handgun and coordinated work with a knowledgeable optician. Stated simply, you need to be looking generally forward through the central part of the lenses for the astigmatism correction to work properly. Note where and at what angle your or your shooting buddy’s eyes sight through safety glasses while shooting and you will see that is often not the case when shooting a rifle; especially not one like the S2K. The exception is when the optic is mounted very high or very far forward, each of which creates its own set of problems.

Glasses%20View%20Angle

I absolutely LOVE everything about red dot sights and would use them in a heartbeat if possible, but the image below demonstrates the problem for me and other shooters with astigmatism. The image on the left is what most people with normal vision see through a red dot sight. Some variation of the image on the right is what people with astigmatism see:

So that 2 MOA dot is suddenly a 20 MOA or larger cluster of random dots for shooters with astigmatism. While it can in fact be used for short range targeting of 50 yards or less (and I have with decent success; especially when paired with a ring reticle that helps me estimate the actual location of the true center dot in the cluster) it is utterly useless for longer range shooting. The problem has something to do with how the human eye handles reflected/refracted light that is beyond my knowledge of eye physiology but seems to happen only with light sources like one finds in a red dot sight, traffic lights on a rainy night, etc. Whatever the cause, it means that those wonderful red dot sights are problematic for people with astigmatism.

So fellow shooters, if your view through a red dot looks like the one on the right there is a very slim chance that you have a defective sight. It is far more likely, however, that you have astigmatism and need to first see an eye doctor then possibly learn to live with the limitation or find an alternative sight arrangement.

I apologize for the length of this post, but the information could be important to some of the shooters out there and possibly even to one of you if you are trying to help someone who can’t figure out just what the problem is if you recognize the symptoms.

11 Likes

Hey @GOBLIN and @Johnksg, keep it up and I’ll move this thread somewhere suddenly and give ya both a simultaneous brain fart and face plant. Might help you remember better🤪

8 Likes

Ooooh! Some other Sheriff is wearing the Danger, Danger hat tonight boys! :grinning:

Boomchucker

8 Likes

@JoeFridaySays Sorry for @Boomchucker interrupting your very interesting post! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

But now you have me wondering…I tend to shoot on lower illumination settings because besides the glare it separates into multiple dots. Is this your case as well or is it on all illumination levels?

4 Likes

With astigmatism it does it on all illumination levels. What you are experiencing at high illumination levels is common and warned about by manufacturers but if it happens on fairly low levels it wouldn’t hurt to get checked.

Edit: I should have said “some” manufacturers warn of this. I just checked the instructions on my Bushnell TRS-25 Red Dot and it does not mention it.

3 Likes

another reason I shoot scopes and dots left hand, still have 20/15 in that eye, right eye, on the other hand has too much scaring on the cornea, distance is decent, close in is fair, but somewhere in the middle i got a spot that dont focus correctly out of that eye, from a EOtech thru AIMPOINT, thru the least expensive red dots, the dot looks like the state of florida to me(that shape.) that explains a lot Joe.

4 Likes

I wish I had your dexterity and adaptability. I am useless doing anything left-handed and would be downright dangerous if I tried to shoot that way. It wouldn’t help in my case anyway since my astigmatism is equally bad in both eyes. I’m glad to hear you found a solution that works for you and please understand that I am not complaining about my problem. I actually am happy with my shooting overall. Even if I probably don’t compare well to most of you, I can outshoot most men my age and usually hit what I aim for and that is good enough for me. I am just sharing my quest for improvement in case it helps someone else.
I also understand the difficulty you must experience in trying to describe what you are seeing to other people. It is hard for anyone else to truly visualize just what it is you are seeing which is why I created the image above.

4 Likes

you ever try a verier tang sight Joe? I shoot my levers right handed, (still get hit by hot brass on ocassion, LOL top eject on winchester) but that lil dish helps my right eye focus. dont know why it works, but it does… I been useing the #2 lyman vernier, comes with 2 dishes, I use the large.

3 Likes

I remember thinking a tang sight looked like a very good option but I couldn’t come up with a good way to mount one on the S2K. Any thoughts?

2 Likes

let me play around with mine, see what i can come up with. vernier tang sights i use fold, so that wouldnt be a issue…

2 Likes

@JoeFridaySays and @GOBLIN I like the creedmore sight…not sure where you could mount it though.

Of course thats a whole lot of wasted precision on a carbine! But the offset mount may make it possible?

2 Likes

@Johnksg One quick test if the sights are co-witnessed is to look through the rear peep at the red dot. If the multiple dots coalesce into one then you may have astigmatism. For reasons I do not fully understand, the small aperture sharpens the dot by restricting the light rays entering your eye to only those that are directly parallel and by excluding the extraneous reflected and refracted rays that cause the multiple dots. For the same reason, using the rear sight with the red dot is a workable solution but it negates most of the benefits of the red dot.

That same phenomenon, however, means that polarized lenses will achieve the same thing which is something I plan to discuss with my eye doctor. It would be great if a second set of prescription glasses or better yet some relatively inexpensive clip-ons allowed me to use red dots.

2 Likes

I seriously explored the tang sight option but could not come up with a viable way to mount one that wasn’t ridiculously Rube Goldberg.
Yes, Creedmore is overkill, but a basic tang sight may be an option.

3 Likes

@JoeFridaySays once again I have learned something new! This why I like this forum.

I just checked on wife’s S2K only see multiple dots on highest settings (plus a lotta glare) same through peep.

Thank you though for the tip!

2 Likes

@JoeFridaySays I am curious why not modify the existing rear sight?

Never mind…I just realized that was a silly question due to difference in eye relief! :astonished:

2 Likes