M*CARBO Brotherhood

Red Dot Sight For Kel Tec SUB2000 Gen 2


ROFL. Vise Grips and a left handed case stretcher; which the butcher at the grocery store where I worked as a dumb a$$ teenager once sent me to borrow from another grocery down the street. I had walked halfway there before the manager pulled up laughing, told me to get in and took me back to the store to walk the walk of shame (and ignorance).


God Damnit ! So do I Now or a ‘‘Red Velvet Cake’’ Come on ‘‘Gent’s’’ Loosing Track of what the hell I wanted to Throw in Hear.


ROTHFL Or you could be the Newbie ‘‘Lube Tech’’ That I sent looking for Muffler Bearings All Over down town Seattle’:sunglasses:


That would be me, but enough on that subject or we’ll get a “Danger, Will Robinson!” :rocket:


Brian, i just need to one thing. DID you EVER get A GRIP ?
I am sure at your age you KNOW the meaning of ignorance and the consequences of those that don"t.


@JoeFridaySays Your right different needs means different approaches. Think this old dog will stick with Irons, crosshairs, and red dots. The SeeAll just might meet some of my old eyes requirements, but too dang old to get new muscle memory. Heck, most of the muscle is gone now anyway. :grin:


@russ At my age so is the memory…


what were we talking about?:exploding_head:


@GOBLIN we were talking? And who are you?


me? the only hell my momma ever raised :smiling_imp::smiling_imp::smiling_imp::smiling_imp:



I want to clarify the astigmatism issue especially as it pertains to red dot sights since many shooters suffer from astigmatism and do not realize it. Knowing this may help them or help you in advising a brother experiencing these problems. They may complain about the sight being blurry or “speckled” and may even return it as defective when the problem is actually their vision.

Admittedly astigmatism can be corrected with prescription lenses, but the correction is intended for normal viewing through the lenses. It simply does not work at the viewing angles we typically use when sighting a rifle although it sometimes can work with a handgun and coordinated work with a knowledgeable optician. Stated simply, you need to be looking generally forward through the central part of the lenses for the astigmatism correction to work properly. Note where and at what angle your or your shooting buddy’s eyes sight through safety glasses while shooting and you will see that is often not the case when shooting a rifle; especially not one like the S2K. The exception is when the optic is mounted very high or very far forward, each of which creates its own set of problems.


I absolutely LOVE everything about red dot sights and would use them in a heartbeat if possible, but the image below demonstrates the problem for me and other shooters with astigmatism. The image on the left is what most people with normal vision see through a red dot sight. Some variation of the image on the right is what people with astigmatism see:

So that 2 MOA dot is suddenly a 20 MOA or larger cluster of random dots for shooters with astigmatism. While it can in fact be used for short range targeting of 50 yards or less (and I have with decent success; especially when paired with a ring reticle that helps me estimate the actual location of the true center dot in the cluster) it is utterly useless for longer range shooting. The problem has something to do with how the human eye handles reflected/refracted light that is beyond my knowledge of eye physiology but seems to happen only with light sources like one finds in a red dot sight, traffic lights on a rainy night, etc. Whatever the cause, it means that those wonderful red dot sights are problematic for people with astigmatism.

So fellow shooters, if your view through a red dot looks like the one on the right there is a very slim chance that you have a defective sight. It is far more likely, however, that you have astigmatism and need to first see an eye doctor then possibly learn to live with the limitation or find an alternative sight arrangement.

I apologize for the length of this post, but the information could be important to some of the shooters out there and possibly even to one of you if you are trying to help someone who can’t figure out just what the problem is if you recognize the symptoms.


Hey @GOBLIN and @Johnksg, keep it up and I’ll move this thread somewhere suddenly and give ya both a simultaneous brain fart and face plant. Might help you remember better🤪


Ooooh! Some other Sheriff is wearing the Danger, Danger hat tonight boys! :grinning:



@JoeFridaySays Sorry for @Boomchucker interrupting your very interesting post! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

But now you have me wondering…I tend to shoot on lower illumination settings because besides the glare it separates into multiple dots. Is this your case as well or is it on all illumination levels?


With astigmatism it does it on all illumination levels. What you are experiencing at high illumination levels is common and warned about by manufacturers but if it happens on fairly low levels it wouldn’t hurt to get checked.

Edit: I should have said “some” manufacturers warn of this. I just checked the instructions on my Bushnell TRS-25 Red Dot and it does not mention it.


another reason I shoot scopes and dots left hand, still have 20/15 in that eye, right eye, on the other hand has too much scaring on the cornea, distance is decent, close in is fair, but somewhere in the middle i got a spot that dont focus correctly out of that eye, from a EOtech thru AIMPOINT, thru the least expensive red dots, the dot looks like the state of florida to me(that shape.) that explains a lot Joe.


I wish I had your dexterity and adaptability. I am useless doing anything left-handed and would be downright dangerous if I tried to shoot that way. It wouldn’t help in my case anyway since my astigmatism is equally bad in both eyes. I’m glad to hear you found a solution that works for you and please understand that I am not complaining about my problem. I actually am happy with my shooting overall. Even if I probably don’t compare well to most of you, I can outshoot most men my age and usually hit what I aim for and that is good enough for me. I am just sharing my quest for improvement in case it helps someone else.
I also understand the difficulty you must experience in trying to describe what you are seeing to other people. It is hard for anyone else to truly visualize just what it is you are seeing which is why I created the image above.


you ever try a verier tang sight Joe? I shoot my levers right handed, (still get hit by hot brass on ocassion, LOL top eject on winchester) but that lil dish helps my right eye focus. dont know why it works, but it does… I been useing the #2 lyman vernier, comes with 2 dishes, I use the large.


I remember thinking a tang sight looked like a very good option but I couldn’t come up with a good way to mount one on the S2K. Any thoughts?


let me play around with mine, see what i can come up with. vernier tang sights i use fold, so that wouldnt be a issue…