M*CARBO Brotherhood

Red Dot Sight For Kel Tec SUB2000 Gen 2


#225

Wow @JoeFridaySays what a beautiful range! You could do it all there, set up for competition, plinkin’ plunkin’ whatever!:+1:


#226

Thanks. But it was like me - easy and cheap - or it wouldn’t have happened. See basic construction and budget notes in this link.

I hadn’t thought about it until your plinkin’ comment, but this is the same farm I roamed for years with a Browning BL-22 lever action doing exactly that. In fact, that was one of the guns we were shooting today. It needed to stretch its legs so to speak and see if it liked wearing a modern red dot (it did).


#227

SeeAll Sight – First Impressions

I tried out the sight for the first time today during a trip to the farm with my son. We were shooting prone from the back of a pick-up truck at a distance of 20 yards supported by a rest using 115 grain American Eagle ammo with the sight on a one-half inch QD mount.

The Quick Summary:

  • There is going to be a learning curve; and
  • I think I want a slightly higher or adjustable mount, especially for shooting prone.

Regarding that last point, many people, myself included, have played the contortion game when it came to finding the right cheek weld to get a good sight picture with the S2K. While an optic on a riser helped minimize the problem it came back to me today when I tried to get a sight picture from the prone position with the SeeAll. It took forever to find a location where I could see the Delta reticle, see the target through my glasses and have a decent cheek weld and grip on the firearm all at the same time. I had no problems at all using the sight in an upright position; only when shooting prone. In fairness, my son who does not wear glasses and who is a good deal more limber than me and therefore did not sound like a bowl of Rice Krispies accompanied by a fair amount of cursing as he assumed the prone position had no issues.

Getting back on track, I manned the spotting scope and let my son take first crack for zeroing purposes since he is a now a more consistent shot than I am (dang it!). We fairly quickly got the sight inside a two inch circle but could not tune it any tighter than that before he became frustrated with it and turned it over to me. Part of his frustration probably was that I was moving very slowly in making adjustments as the directions say. At that distance (20 yards), I can see a four inch circle, but without magnification, I can’t do a lot more than aim generally for the middle of it and hope to hit somewhere inside of it which I did with a fair degree of success. Neither of us felt like moving the truck closer to spend more time trying for a better zero and I wanted to put some shots downrange to get a feel for the sight, so that’s what I did. I had no trouble consistently hitting the 8 inch steels and also was hitting a 5 inch yellow Duramax self-healing ball a good 80% of the time; all from 20 yards. Not great, but for the first time with a new and unusual sight I can live with those results.

So bottom line is that the jury is still out but I think I am going to like it once I get used to it. It does solve my astigmatism “flare” problem that I so often encounter with red dot sights. My primary concern now is how fine it will zero and the short answer may end up being that it will zero as well as I can shoot and that is good enough. I also think I may want it on a slightly higher mount than the one-half inch mount it is now on to make getting a sight picture a bit easier in positions other than the norm (like prone).


#228

SWEET ! Looks nice and versatile. Almost like a Hickok45 rig !!!
Do the brackets that fit over the standards just slide down to the position that is defined by where what look hocks rest.
Some kids have, what looks like, too much fun

I have not tried prone. Only rested or off hand. Glad to see you got the time to shoot!!
I found that returned to zero has been spot on on the 10/22 taking the sight(with QD riser) on and off. The pictures post above will stand as MY evidence.


#229

Very Nice Job on your Range ! And the Great Design and The Forethought going into it !:sunglasses:


#230

The T-Posts have those “knobs” along their entire length so you can slide/adjust the brackets to any height.


#231

I should add that the “self healing” Caldwell Duramax ball target at the lower right of the center section took everything we could throw at it with minimal damage; even from relatively close range (like 10 yards). That included 45 ACP and .223 although we only tried the latter once because it almost blew the ball off the supports.

While I hung the ball and it worked great that way, it is meant to be simply tossed on the ground and shot, where it will then roll randomly in response to the impact ready to be shot again in a new location. It sells on Amazon for $11.99.


#232

[quote=“Dred, post:218, topic:794”] wrote:
I need to state clearly that the Monstrum is, IMO, a crap mount. When you look at a Picatinny mount you should flip it over and examine the crossbrace. The crossbrace on a proper Pic mount FILLS the corresponding space on the rail. What we generaly find is a skinny guage rod which 1. is adequate to apply tension to the sides of the rail, 2. is magically small enough to fit into a weaver rail gap, and 3. is entirely inadequate at performing its primary function which is securely and positively fix the location on the breech to muzzle axis.

So, the Monstrum is a crap riser, but its price is favorable and we can practice the old push it towards the muzzle while tightening it down to limit movement from recoil. The 1913 spec calls for a lot more security than recoil - a proper mount will take a blw to the optic without flinching.
[/quote]

JoeFridaySays posts:

I ordered a couple of Monstrum risers from Amazon, primarily to explore different riser heights with the SeeAll sight. They arrived yesterday and I was extremely disappointed with the quality despite the warning from @Dred. One of them even appeared to have been used but it is not worth the time and hassle to do a return.

One reason I was expecting more is that I have been using an off-brand riser from Mizugiwa (see below) that looks good, holds tight and has been on and off the rail at least 50 times without the attached optic or sight ever losing zero. I was expecting the Monstrum to be better but the fit and finish of the Mizugiwa are better, the “feel” of the QD latch inspires more confidence despite the lack of a positive détente, and the crossbrace is rectangular and appears to completely or at least largely fill the rail slot. The Mizugiwa mount might be worth trying as a cheap alternative to the Monstrum. A few photos and the Amazon Link are below.


#233

Isn’t it fun being the bad guy. Give em a danger Will Robinson for me


#234

Awesome @JoeFridaySays and @Dred. Those are very astute and valuable considerations coming from two very credible members on MCARBO Forum. The Seeall concept caught my interest, this is important data. I’ll stay tuned…:+1:


#235

HAppy Post Thanksgiving!!! Hey guy are getting any more time in on the SeeAll ?


#236

Same to you. I was hoping to head to the farm this weekend, but not sure that is going to happen. Been too busy to make it to the range here and can’t afford that very often anyway at $15 an hour. But I really do need to make some time to put rounds downrange with the sight and just practice with it. I think I will eventually like it a lot because it solves so many of my vision issues, but it is going to take some getting used to.


#237

I have the cheap version of the Sparc and it works fine. Zeroed easily and held zero when I took it off to fold the gun. I zeroed it at 25 yards and was right on at 100 yards. I hope that helps you


#238

“Danger Will Robinson”, y’all. :wink:


#239

Great Work and Follow Up’ on this Subject ! As Alway’s And Yes The Monstrum is Junk.
Who would think it would be such a Ordeal, to Purchase a Simple little Mounting device so we
can Enjoy Our Passions and Fun in Life’:sunglasses:


#240

its always the “detail” pieces that hang ya up. I went thru 6 mounts, for a H&K, B-square and AIM’S, before i finally ended the issue, bit the bullet, and bought a STANAG mount. never had a issue with a cracked mount/floppy scope again…


#241

Okay, know that I’m gonna get jumped on here… but, look at the following link that depicts the SeeAll being used to fire at various targets. Seems to me that a double tap with any accuracy is non-existent.
Heck of a time lag for triangle or cross hair to come back on target. Afraid my eye would be chasing the triangle instead of staying on target as with iron or red dot.
See all 2018 Shot Show

Just can’t see me abiding by “two in the heart, one in the head, means the tango is dead” rule with the SeeAll.


#242

Having commented favorably on the Mizugiwa riser mount, I feel the need to post this as a reply to @Boomchucker rather than edit my previous post so that it may be more widely seen. I went to the farm today and shot 100 rounds to get some practice with the SeeAll sight. The shots were roughly supported on the tailgate of a pickup truck but not actually benched. There was nothing unusual about the ammunition which was primarily standard American Eagle 115 grain rounds. Twice while we were shooting, the Mizugiwa mount and sight flew off the firearm landing on the ground. In each case it reattached holding zero but the failure was disappointing in light of the review I had just written and the fact it had never happened until after I posted a review.

I suspect the cause was the absence of a clear locking détente when the QD latch is closed. This allowed vibration to eventually loosen the lock without me noticing to the point it no longer held and the mount came off. While I mentioned this absence in the review, it now appears to clearly be a negative that should be considered before purchasing this mount. If you use the mount as I do, you should periodically check the latch to insure it remains tight. I still have no idea why it happened this time though and not on any previous occasion.


#243

@russ I won’t jump on you at all. Different sights and systems are right for different people with different needs and we should all find and use what works for us. And I still haven’t decided whether the SeeAll is right for me.

I am experimenting with the SeeAll because the single plane non-flare design has the potential to address many of my vision issues. I can already tell, however, that there is a greater learning curve with this sight than with other, more traditional optics. And it is an optic . You are looking through a lens at a magnified image of a reticle of some type (delta or crosshair) sitting atop a naturally or tritium backlit field of fluorescent green. The reticle terminates at the top of that green field which is where you see your target and aim your round. The view of the target is not magnified in any way.

I am hardly an expert, but in my experience, it generally takes longer to acquire an initial sight picture with any optic – traditional scope, red dot, etc. – than it does with iron sights and the same holds true for re-acquiring the target after the first shot. And the only fair comparison of a SeeAll is to those other optics and not to iron sights.

I do not yet have enough experience with the sight to comment on your specific point, beyond the learning curve observation made above and the acknowledgement that I am sometimes slow in acquiring an initial sight picture as I learn to use the sight. At the same time, that speed is rapidly improving with practice. My gut tells me that the ultimate answer will be based on the amount of time and effort I put in rather than any inherent limitation of the sight. If that proves wrong, I will abandon it and move on but not before giving it a fair trial. On the other hand, there are members who have shot hundreds of rounds using the SeeAll and can probably comment directly regarding the issue(s) you have raised.

BTW: I think much of the time lag in those videos was: 1) so that the cameraman could stay on track filming through the sight; and 2) intentionally delayed shots to show the sight picture for advertising purposes; rather than an actual reflection of the sight or shooter’s capabilities.


#244

So What are ya saying? I Have to eat crow and take my ten star review back !:rofl: It’s all good I know next time you will use the Vise Grips ! :smiley: