M*CARBO Brotherhood

New Recoiless Charging Handle Package - Disapointment

Well after buying just about everything MCARBO makes for this toy I was watching the MCARBO U-Tube pitch for the Recoilless Charging Handle and the detailed explanation of the securing pin made sense. So I ordered the kit, got it in less than a week, took a week to get around to installing it. Cumbersome install but manageable on a bench with light and a long thin screwdriver, not doable in the dark or a sit down in the dirt field strip. Shoots much smoother with noticeably less recoil. TWO WEEKD weeks after I install and less than a month after I ordered the initial kit it I get an email about a new connecting pin “Tool less” and MCARBO describes it as “the way we should have built them to start”. Sounds like more recall language than nifty new part language. I contact customer service and explain that I feel that I deserve the pin that is “the way we should have built them to start”. Back and forth emails, CS offers me a new pin free if I pay the shipping. Again, because I am very stubborn when offended, bet I am not the only one here that is, I don’t feel that to get the part that is “the way we should have built them to start” I should have to pay shipping yet again to get it. Part likely 10 grams or less, put it in an envelope 55 cent stamp and send it. I really cant give a good review on a part that is not “the way we should have built them to start” so I didn’t, got an auto thank you for my bad review and an offer to email back if I had problems, I do and they haven’t.

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@Oneof6

I think that’s a fair offer James, I would take it and pay the small amount for shipping. I would not expect MCARBO to mail out free updated connecting pins to everyone. This is a small company that I support so they can continue to make improved products for firearms. Don’t feel bad, I have the original Recoiless Charging Handle without the hole in it and without the connecting pin so I have to purchase a whole new charging handle.

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You just got caught with bad timing. Happens to all of us at one point in time. Sucks for you, and I get it. But if they replace yours, what about mine and every one else’s? Car manufacturers don’t give you new parts when they upgrade every year either. The old pin has been around for about 2 years now. It was time for the upgrade, and they did offer you a new part cost free, albeit plus shipping.

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@Jperr

Good example, I was thinking the same thing.

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I just ordered a part from a company that encourages member feedback I wouldnt have given a rip if it had cost twice as much. However less than a month later (not a year) I get the email rendering part of that assembly obsolete. That offended me and I do give a rip about it now. I didn’t ask for the MCARBO email or make up its verbiage " the way we should have built them to start" MCARBO chose those word one would assume understanding their meaning and effect… The start for me was not a year ago, weeks and less than a month. It is stubborn of me, but not unreasonable of me, to insist on receiving the new part that is " the way we should have built them to start" including shipping. I managed a division of a company that had 65,000 active parts and over a million go to parts on demand in the Engineering drawings. I have sat in countless meetings with smart Engineers that had myopia and just couldn’t help themselves in their unintended quest to create the perfect Customer Reduction Plan. It worked and they are all gone.

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@oneof6 I’d be more upset if MCARBO wasn’t trying to iterate and provide customers with the best product possible. They’re a great company and lots of companies sell a product and then introduce a new and improved version of said product. Not very fair to chastise them over this. Lots of times the sales team is completely separate from the research and development team. It sounds like they tried to make it right at least.

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Im not tryin to pile on here James @Oneof6 … but…
Obsolete? If you have the prior version of the pin, its far from obsolete! Pain in the butt sometimes, yes, but It is still an improvement over KelTecs engineering.
I feel for ya though, mostly because of your specific timeline… i wouldve hoped to see Mcarbo put a hold on the old version once the new one was slated for release, or maybe they couldve added a disclaimer about pending re-design… However, the internet is full of complaints , fixes, and praises for the old version, so you cant say that what you bought willingly is a surprise. Im happy to hear they offered you the upgrade, it shows the integrity ive come to admire about the company.

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I feel the same way,When a product is introduced to the market and has a engineering flaw,then the flaw is fixed with an upgraded part the consumer is always hung out to dry for being a testing dummy.

I don’t even use the original pin in my charging handle,I just ground the inlet a little deeper for the recoil spring to engage the charging handle. It works great,and the charging handle won’t pull out accidentally.

MCARBO in general makes some great upgrades for the many firearm’s. Not all of them can work perfectly,that’s just the way it is.
Innovation is what makes any product better,whether it’s a company like MCARBO,or an individual fabricating something out in their garage. In the end,we all wind up with a better solution to a problem.

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Well thanks for not piling on :grin:. Do I hope you won’t be offended by my response.

Obsolete? Yes by definition of the word in a manufacturing sense the initial part is obsolete. In a practical use sense, 8 track tape players still work, function, but are obsolete.

Bought of my own volition, yes based on information from MCARBO that was taken as acurate and up to date. So yes I can say I was surprised by them seemingly selling the obsolete parts without notification while releasing the upgraded part at the effective same time

Obviously they had one part in the sales pipeline and a planned obsolescence in their R&D loop.

I didn’t choose or suggest their words regarding how they forced this obsolete part into play “the way we should have built it to start” That’ s powerful language for any manufacturer to use, some like myself will insist that is recall verbiage and demand a part that is “the way we should have built it to start”

To insult me that in some fashion that I am at fault for believing the sales pitch and actually having expectations that MCARBO would be as honorable as they imply Brothers should be, admit fault and fix it for myself and others is disengenous. They are the seller and I am the buyer, was a buyer.

Jim

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I understand the views of everyone on this issue but personally think the better course would have been for Mcarbo to offer a free replacement to those using the old style locking pin. That is just good business and helps to cement brand loyalty. I acknowledge the company is a small one but the cost of that small part and the shipping thereon would likely have been repaid quickly in additional sales to satisfied customers.
Still it is not my business and not my decision. I hated the old style locking pin and so I coughed up the bucks for the new one and for the shipping that nearly equaled the cost of the part. But I was disappointed that I had to do so.

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Just want to share my perspective. The original, annoying locking pin did NOT present a safety or durability concern.

MCARBO improved the design. Ruger did not replace Mark IIs or even Mark IIIs when they redesigned the Mark IV with the understanding that amateurs might need to dissasemble and reassemble for cleaning.

So, I think MCARBO needs to rename the part to Charging Handle 3.0. The design with Pin was 2.0. Pre-pin they offered 1.0. Heck I’m running a surviving 1.0.

I think it will help folks understand there is no magic formula that lets suppliers anticipate future needs & opportunities.

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Thanks, well thought out. However, I don’t agree with the Ruger analogy. When coupled with the verbiage " the way we should have built them to start" it directly implies that knowingly the prior releases were built NOT the way they should be. I didn’t choose their words or even know there would be a new pin version within a month of my purchase rendering mine obsolete.

In the after market business this is called being " Dead Right" . When companies have persnikity pendantic practices and policies where the play " got ya " We are right by a hair Mr Customer, tough luck. That’s being Dead Right, one will win on narrow pedantics and lose a faithful customer over short sighted peanut practices. Also know as a Hellen Keller customer reduction plan.

Jim

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So using your logic, you are entitled to every new version of any item you have ever purchased for free? When a new body style comes out on a vehicle, you should get a free one?

I run a Mfg shop we design and build tools, and , on occasion, make revisions. Not every customer even wants the new revisions they want what is proven to work.

I can see you frustration due to the timeline but otherwise I don’t see your argument. Besides they offered you a free one if you paid the shipping.

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MrMachinist

I never wrote that it applied to every item I ever purchased. I described the circumstances accurately, many agree with me. Your analogy does not apply to what I wrote or these circumstances. Its not the money, I could buy a bushel if these pins I I had a whim to. Its the principal and offense, selling me a part is not “the way we should have built them to start”. Maybe it’s my enhanced Engineer’s reading comprehension or my experience in aftermarket that allows me to see what others don’t.

Jim

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Please enlighten me how my logic doesn’t apply.

Product A rev A is realeased on X date

At a later date, Y, product A has rev B released.

Should all purchasers of rev A get a free rev B part? Please explain why or why not.

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Well, I’m a happy customer that hangs out here. So, I’ve known they they have been trying to execute an easier solution for the past 4 months. 4 months ago Chris told us his team had been tasked with design improvement on this part.

I don’t need your appreciation or your agreement. I know that MCARBO needs to make money to survive and sell me parts on another day. Free everything would be great.

And I recognize the statement that offends you as the plain, simple truth. The design is improved on a generational level. These types of improvements require an AHA moment to create. And AHA moments come on their own schedule.

We watched for years until the optic mount team had their hammer/sear engagement AHA.

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@Oneof6 how is the old part “obsolete” if it works? It might not work as well as the new part, but it works nonetheless. You’re taking this wayyyyy too personally using phrases like “offended, insulted, etc.” You’ve managed to squeeze more juice out of this issue than I thought humanly possible. I bought a $50 magazine release extension from Springer I didn’t like. I tried to sell it and so far have no takers and it’s rotting in a parts drawer. I didn’t beat Springers door down to take it back or go on their forum to complain about it. I went about my day and forgot about it. Geez man.

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Agreed and he only has to pay shipping to get the new part.
In my book that’s a great deal and I see nothing to complain about here.

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Do I really have to define obsolete? Withdrawing one part for another is a planed obsolescence, example, like their first Gen Muzzle deflector Gen 1 machined fit obsoleted to a crush washer fit. You cant even buy the MCARBO Gen 1, its obsolete. If you have a Gen one it is still functional. Functional and obsolete are not the same things.

Unlike some, I am not part of a “team” that hangs out there at MCARBO and gets their product updates 4 months in advance. Just a customer that goes on the MCARBO website selects a product as described, looks at their applicable install video and buys the product. I don’t search the internet to see how likely it is that it will be replaced, why should I, if there were something wrong with a part it should not be sold. If there is a use by date threashold one should be told right up front. It is not proper to hot swap out a planned obsolescence without notice at the point of sale.

Sure I am stubborn, and as some of you have noted YOU would be happy with a partial replacement. We are just different and I have high standards for happy. If I accept less than full replacement every time I disassemble it and see that part it will remind me of when I gave in - gave up when I was right. That doesn’t bother some people like it does me.

What will make me regain respect is for Chris to actually return an email, or for an updated pin to show up at my home, or to just go down to my shop and just make one myself. Its not a door on a reactor, just a pin. I designed and fielded three generations of in-place machining equipment and can handle it in a half hour.

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This topic has reached its intellectual limit.