M*CARBO Brotherhood

Interesting Take on Product Liability

The warning (directly below the image) basically seems to say:. It ain’t drop safe and it wasn’t designed to be drop safe so don’t be surprised if it fires if you drop it with a round in the chamber. I’m serious, don’t be thinking the safety is all you need. Commonse sense not included.

The final step of the instructions seems basically a reminder.

I’ve been curious about this for awhile. So, after install, I did a bit of testing. Rest assured, I WILL NOT be carrying this rifle around with a loaded chamber.

The safety prevents trigger pull as designed to do. But a sharp rap will result in a fired round regardless of the position of the safety. I think it would hold up to a drop of a couple feet, but more than that will be bad.

Rifle Basix has been doing these triggers for a loooong time. I like the approach.

Edit to add: Ok … just got back from setting up a generator at my folks place. They are too hard headed to stay with me or my brother. At any rate I was showing it to my gf’s son and tried to demonstrate the rifle firing by banging buttstock on the ground. Well, I stopped before banging hard enough to dent the stock. Strangely, with the action in the stock, I could not bang it hard enough to make it fire.

@JoeFridaySays … are you as amazed as I am that this piece of paper actually protects them?

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Wow, if that was a part on automobile it would be recalled.

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It actually would not protect them in most states. While the nuances vary by state, the general rule is that a warning will suffice only where there is no feasible safer design or the danger is inherent in the product and cannot be mitigated. If Ford sold cars with undersized brakes, a bold warning on the dash advising that stopping distances were 3 times longer than the average would not insulate them from liability to the owner/driver. And even if it did, what about minor passengers and other motorists exposed to the danger? Those persons were NOT warned of the danger and had no opportunity to avoid the risk to which Ford chose to expose them.

An example familiar to several in this forum would be presses and stamping devices. They have had numerous bold warnings for years. But virtually all now also require that two widely spaced buttons be pressed to activate them. Why? To keep someone from ignoring the warnings and amputating a hand. It is well known that people do not always obey warnings. Moreover, any warning must be commensurate with the risk. A sign merely warning people to stay off the grass might be adequate if the grass is slippery. It would not be adequate if the grass in question was infested with poisonous snakes.

Any lawyer practicing in this area would insist on the strongly worded warning but would also carefully explain to the manufacturer/client the points above while urging implementation of an alternative design.

ADDENDUM:

I should emphasize that a “feasible” safer design does not impair the functionality of the article. Dull knives are far less likely to cut you but they also are useless for most intended purposes. Table saws have riving knives to help prevent kickback. Handheld circular saws do not since they are used for plunge and other cuts that could not be done with a riving knife in place.

Looking at firearms, the vast majority of accidental discharges involve semi-automatics where the user has ejected the magazine but failed to cycle the action and remove the cartridge still in battery. When the trigger is pulled (for disassembly or other reasons) the firearm discharges. That is why Ruger and others have implemented magazine safeties. Other manufacturers have not since doing so arguably limits the capabilities of the firearm. Another example is a transfer safety in a single action revolver. Most experienced users of single action revolvers will carry on an empty cylinder but some will not. The transfer bar helps avoid accidental discharge. I so far have not seen how that impairs functionality but, if it does, a manufacturer can argue it was not appropriate.

THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE LEGAL ADVICE.

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Thanks for sharing that perspective.

I think it interests me 'cause I like the approach. I have a poor mans habit of owning my personal responsibility.

So, that warning will result in a behavior change when I carry her into the squirrel woods to earn her notches. She’ll travel with an empty chamber. I have always confirmed the safety functions on assembly; and, it may not have failed while installed in the stock. The fact that I saw it fire without pressing the trigger while outside the stock is serious business.

I will write up a note about this trigger to store with the factory trigger and the rifle. Never know if I’ll be 'round to explain when this rifle finds its next home.

Maybe I should see how much S&W’s engravers charge to do some of that millimeter deep safety warning engraving they are so crazy for (not really digging at S&W even if I loathe the engravings; rather, trying to toss another extreme out to see if it sticks).

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My 2 cents worth.
Thanks for the morning coffee read, now that I am awake…
Safety, safety, safety. barrel directing awareness especially when loaded. We all know the drill. All I can summarize is (and it’s happened before to me) an accidental slip and fall. Happens quickly and 1st up is self preservation during the fall. I wouldn’t feel comfortable carrying a firearm that could accidentally fire with the safety on. It just seems very unsafe. If it’s modified from original manufacturer design then you assume the risk to yourself and others however that might apply.

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GREAT observation. Thankfully, this rifle does not have a defensive mission. Seems very reasonable to expect this trigger would be a liability to my freedom if discussed in court. Safe bet that the 10mm or the 460 Rowland on my hip will be charged with my defense while stalking the tree rats.

Trip/fall risk is why chamber will stay empty until the rifle is mounted.

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Excellent firearm safety.
Your in the drivers seat, I would operate in the same manner. Further, wouldn’t be my 1st choice if out and about with friends hunting, target et al.

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This is not made up… a few months ago at Walmart there was a large box in the aisle filled with hundreds of yellow rubber ducks for the kids bathtub. You have all seen these… :baby_chick:.
I picked one up and read the label on the bottom. It said: “This product is not intended to be a replacement for proper adult supervision”.
I mean Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??? I can only imagine the lawsuit that caused the company to have to make such a disclaimer. I am guessing someone said: “Your honor, I thought the duck was watching the baby”.

No matter how hard we try… you can’t fix stupid.

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every speed part ever made. has a paper flyer included OFF ROAD USE ONLY.
yes sir, im gonna use this 75 horse boost NOS system on ma dirt bike, i jus has to hit the tops of them 125’ pines on the downhill section… :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :smiling_imp: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1:

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And with that said, I could run out of likes.
Society attitude has changed so much. Business, corporations et al run the risk of loosing everything from other peoples negligence.
It’s common sense stuff, where is the awareness gone?

That’s Darwin’s work, common sense would say “no that’s not a great idea”.

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Hello: New poster here. Is this a mcarbo product?

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@Iraqvet No… a company named Rifle Basix.

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Rifle Basix is an independant company that provides .5 to 2lb adjustable triggers for several makes of bolt action rifles.

To the best of my knowledge MCARBO does not compete in that niche.

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Thank you. I have purchased several products from mcarbo. Pf9, Winchester model 70, and savage 64 spring kits/triggers.

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@Iraqvet

Interesting. I hadn’t noticed MCARBO’s offerings that compete with Rifle Basix. MCARBO isn’t offering anything trigger for my 880s, but the comparisons are relevant to this discussions.

I looked at the listing for Marlin’s XT22 which is descended from my 880s. MCARBO is offering a spring replacement which:

  • Reduce your trigger pull from a stock 2 lbs to a modified 1 lb (Average results can vary up to +/- 1lb)
  • Improve accuracy and overall rifle performance
  • Solid 50% Trigger Pull Reduction!

And this is at about 1 tenth the cost of the Rifle Basix kit.

I think it is relevant that MCARBO chose to retain factory engagement. And, it is a screaming deal per MCARBO’s regular modus operandi.

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I’m going to add something here. I have a Rifle Basix trigger installed on an older Savage rifle made prior to their newest system. I experimented with several settings, very light to safer than not very light. After much experimentation, and due to the problem exhibited above, I settled on a medium light trigger setting and installed a second spring onto an indentation on the Savage Axis trigger body. That worked. i have much more confidence in the trigger stability than before. The trigger is not a match type set at .5 lbs. or less, more like 1.5 to 2 lbs. However, I am confident it is safe to a point of stock drop testing…
I have fired the weapon several times with both settings and the trigger works well for me. You may have other experience. As to liability, any Court in the country where you are at fault will review any modification made as a potential hazard to your defense.
Stay safe.

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I may only use the new trigger in both my pf 9 and savage. I am worried about too soft of a trigger. Especially, if I am going to have my son shooting the savage. For the Teams guys they have a lot more training and discipline. To run around with a really light trigger. My first hunting rifle ( 14 years old) has an extremely heavy trigger. I was shooting it a couple months back out at my fathers. I complained to my father about it. Definitely, nothing like my custom 300 rum. My father replied. I prob allowed you to purchase that rifle because if the 8 pound trigger pull ( model 70 30-06). Lol On my model 700 .308 I enjoy a 3lbs trigger. This is the rifle I play with for precision shooting. In my area. Out at my fathers we have set up a range out to 1000 yards. I shot my rum at his range. 100,200,300,700,100 yard. Have not hit 1000 yrd with my 308 yet. I injoy reloading ammo for precision. For the 308 I will use a seaira 168 gr BTH. For the rum 168 A-max. Well I’ll stop boring you. Thanks for the reply.

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Yes, I worry about having too light of a trigger. For the savage I may only replace the trigger. The savage I may use to train my son 8yrs. I am comfortable with a 3 pound trigger.

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Hi. Setting up a Rifle Basix trigger depends on the Savage rifle model. The Axis was easy once I learned what I needed to do to accomplish a safe trigger mechanism. Can I go lower than 2.5 lbs.? Yes, now that I have the right spring combination. I’ll keep the trigger as is now due to safety reasons (liability). In my opinion, the change was well worth the effort. My time is worth making a gun ‘fit’ my preferences.
Regarding your .308, you may want to give 175 gr. SMK’s a look over for 1000 yds.

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I think I have done similarly. My pull guage is at my house, but I’m at my GF’s, so I can’t report where I landed. But my install progressively increased pull to a point that it may actually be drop safe as installed. The pull is still wicked light. After adjusting to eliminate creep, I actually backed out a bit so that I get a hair worth of give before the break. I was actually concerned about mounting the trigger without accidental discharge before increasing pull and reintroducing a little creep.

Happy now, but it’s an empty chamber while moving 'round type of rifle.

And, I have already been considering installing the Rifle Basix kit for my 880 stainless and my Glenfield 25. It is gonna warm up enough to get this rifle to a bench before I decide. MCARBO has trigger springs that will cut the pull significantly so I will determine what I want. The 25 is 100% factory and scar’d like it was once carried by my 6 year old self, so it may well remain factory. The 880 is ghost ring sighted so I need to figure out whether trigger work will net any actual accuracy in use.

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