Changing The Paradigm


@Dane that is so true!

One of our guest speakers is a defense attorney who has tried self defense shootings. (He is also an avid shooter as well!). Like he says, (I am paraphrasing)

“I would rather have as a client a man who defended his life and that of his family with a very effective lever action .30-30 than a fully loaded AR15 with red-dot optics, tac light, aggressive muzzle brake and a drum magazine. While the event is the same, and the weapon you chose to defend yourself should not matter in the real world it matters greatly to law enforcement, DAs, judges, juries, and the media!”


Kind of like trying to explain why you needed a Nascar racer to go to the grocery store.


Just some thoughts - Maybe just toss out the idea of a class during one of your after shoot bull sessions. See what kind of reaction and potential interest you get. Also, could offer to invite one of your local LE or attorney friends out to have a question and answer session after a shoot. It may whet their appetite for something more organized and comprehensive.


@Dane good ideas. We have done specific training that involved local LEOs and lawyers in the past. The most recent was helping several local churches come up with an armed defense plan. :flushed:

But I honestly can’t think of any courses aimed specifically at seniors (at least with firearms) and the specific issues they face.

I like your idea. Think I will float out a sign-up sheet for those whom are interested.


Isn’t that long spike for use just below the ear ?


@Turmeric1 look at that spike, now look at that breacher on the muzzle. Stop, look again and let it sink in; everything that is wrong with the industry.

Cool has replaced any Gawd Durned sense! :flushed:


vidio games and tv shows are the source for a lot of accessories now, instead of real world use…
say hello to my lil frien



@GOBLIN I know that chainsaw zombie slayer is wrong for so many reasons, but I have to admit, I like it. :smiling_imp:
Maybe for the trauma kit on the stock, good idea. The ankle ones get so sweaty and feel wierd. And a trauma kit may do you no good when you’re elsewhere needing to use it and it is under the seat back in the car.


I would travel to take that course. It sounds a little bit like what was taught to us at Oregon Firearms Academy, (in Brownsville) but Rick and his team retired from doing any instructional courses on his property. :slightly_frowning_face:

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With out and beyond a doubt v!!!


@Partsed right now it is just an open, skills based tactical shoot, but you are more than welcome to come! I have the action ranges every 1st and 3rd Friday starting at 12 noon. Shooter fee for non club members is $5. :grin::+1:

I will warn you, due to high numbers I closed this session to the first 10 whom signed up. (Want everyone to get lots of shooting time!) But I will allow “audits” for those whom are interested. Also the skills are very basic for most. I am working on training additional range crews to meet the demand. :astonished:

But it is a fun group.


@Johnksg Your question follows with something I have been thinking about my own skill set.
I have no formal or practiced training of any kind. My skill, mindset, and defensive attitude comes from growing up and living in a rural,agricultural community with a small population and hunting in and roaming the vast high desert… Then it would have been a surprise to find any young boy without a .22 and a direct violent act or assault would be insanely unlikely.
Even up until I graduated in 83, major and violent crime hadn’t really hit here. That is no longer the case. Drug crime, home invasions and murders from the domestic, sex, gang related, senseless and stupid to outright “rubber truck” crazy are now a seemingly everyday event.
So that brings me to what I had been thinking. I have the mindset needed. (who, why, when, consequences etc)
Because of my high desert life and perspective, I have been wondering if I’ve been led into a false sense of preparedness in my own environment, with regard to adequate skill set. Skill-set meaning the smooth, natural, and precise operation within the civilian environment I am most likely to be in. (not military or LE oriented) mechanics of specific point tactics such as entryway and hallway defense and containment, awareness of innocent or background targets, route and defense of escape.
In considering all that I also was considering what type of training I would deem valuable to me as a civilian, that addressed the issues specific to me. Not based on a military, LE, or competition shooter format but a real, any given day, possible indoor/outdoor event.
You had mentioned courses designed for seniors, but I don’t see why it doesn’t relate overall.
It is training that can be fun as well as provide valuable, quality, hands on experience that can be applied directly into the individual life and circumstance of each person


I mentioned that simply because of the number of seniors taking the course. Many of them are taking up the gun after decades of neglect and are quickly finding out that there is better weapons than a .38 snubby. :astonished:

Also there are physical limitations. A large number of them show up with a .22 pistol for example. That requires an entirely different strategy than a combat caliber.

Again your right. A corner is a corner, a door is a door, the ability to maneuver obstacles and put accurate hits at speed apply to everyone and is fun! :grin:



First, my apologies for the multiple long replies, but there was a lot to unpack there and your excellent post got me to thinking…

I do NOT think that anyone engaged in their daily routine (outside of a combat zone) is prepared for “that moment”. You can be the greatest gunslinger in the world and there will still be that natural hesitation, that moment of “this can’t be happening!” This is why the attacker has the advantage of momentum.

That is not necessarily a bad thing. I related to you a long time ago, my one and only interaction with law enforcement and how that momentary paralysis and forgetting all of my ingrained reflexes probably saved my life. But the reverse is also true, if it had not been LEOs it could have been very bad.

One of the things I am exploring and striving for is not how to be the fastest gunslinger, but how to avoid situations in the first place, and failing that improve upon the recovery time and appropriate tactical response.

It is a tough issue.

My kid went through the phase where he wanted to jump out from behind doors and scare me. I would jump out of my skin and he caught me flat footed every time simply because it was unexpected.

I don’t care if you can turn splits in the teens…I want to measure recovery time.

Just need to figure out a way to do it safely. :grin::+1:


So I am going over my lesson plan for tomorrow and here is what I am coming up with. (It is very baby steps)

After safety brief I will set up three bays that shooters will complete in stages.

Bay1 - basic double tap drill. From a can’t miss range of 3 yards shooters will engage a 8" target with controlled pairs. Focus will be upon techniques and posture.

Bay2 - introduction to shotgun. Shooters will have a chance to shoot both a pump and semiauto shotgun and engage static clay targets from a range of 5 -30 yards. Each shooter will fire a total of 10 rounds. (Just a fam - fire)

Bay3 - shooters will move at a walking pace through a short course of right and left angles with an RSO and Coach. They will learn the basic techniques of cover and engagement.


@GOBLIN hey brother my drill has a breecher on it!


Yeah, but when do your students get to try some advanced breaching techniques? :smiling_imp:


@Johnksg thatn thar would so some damage! got a box full of them, thinkin of puttin the 4" on tha 22, now if i could just make it spin with every round…


and while we are on the subject of doors and breaching…chaos%20meme%2055
im here all week folks, try the pulled pork, the veal is a bit dicey…


@Johnksg Sorry about my delayed reply’s, and don’t apologize for your multiple/lengthy replies.
I like this subject personally, and like you said, It is a tough issue.
It addresses such a widely dynamic set of circumstances, mindsets, physical limitations/requirements combined with perspectives, methodology’s and viewpoints that are (at least partially) drawn from an out of date knowledge structure. (I’m going to call that the “Snub-Nose Syndrome”)

I like the 3 bay lesson plan your beginning with. I think the baby steps method is a good one. :+1:
It gets a person started shooting and re-familiarizing themselves with a weapon, and not overwhelming them with too much info and method mixed with too many and too distant targets all at once.

I have been thinking on what might be include in designing a course and curriculum tailored to the needs and requirements of a student that falls within what I’m going to call a “Civilian Classification”.
It would include training applicable to a Home, Family, Urban, Public type of setting and the proper use of the weapons and ammo most commonly found and likely used if one of those situations were to occur.
@JoeFridaySays Brian referenced part of a quote once on the virtues of a good 'ole 30-30 and self defense. :grin::wink::sunglasses:
Military, LE, and Combat forms of training deal in absolutes, with methods to achieve a goal based on an offensive and lethal termination of any situation, with all other concerns being secondary or a non-issue all together.
I have a few ideas I will put into a list, on possible ways I think might be useful, to approach the training, based on the capabilities and in-capabilities of the “Civilian Class Student”. Training that takes advantage of everything they can do and do know, and to avoid the pitfalls of what they can’t do and don’t know.

I believe that statement is an absolutely “Key and Core” bit of philosophy and method needed for what you are trying to accomplish.