M*CARBO Brotherhood

BATFE & Pistol Braces - 2020/2021

Do you remember when the story about BATFE reviewing a specific pistol brace broke recently?

If you have a Honey Badger Pistol - it may be an SBR. Somehow, the August 3 letter Q received is just hitting the streets now.

I think it is craptastical. And I have serious questions about the brace. I think Q made a serious tactical error in selling the Pistol configured with a brace and selling a near identically configured SBR with a buttstock. I’m very curious about the braces length of pull. It may be so long as to locate the strap past many shooters elbows, but I’m judging from pictures without dimensions.

I will say up front that my SBPDW works as a pistol brace and I seriously hope the community is being alarmist with suggestions that BATFE is just getting started. Q’s marketing presents it as a variation of their SBR offering - possibly mistake 1. And Q seemingly built this for giants with exceptionally long forearms - possibly mistake 2.

If you have a Honey Badger Pistol, Q has advice for you. If you run a pistol brace - keep your ear to the ground for updates.

Edited to add:


I’ll start this with, my girlfriend manages a self storage company so as as you can imagine we have seen every variety of shenanigans and Tweaker BS under the sun. Years ago we had a crime ring stealing firearms and storing them at our facility along with counterfeit cash so we got to meet various ATF and Secret Service Agents. So I gave be of the ATF guy in Denver a call and asked him what I should do. Basically he was saying that the issue is going to be rifle versus pistol calibers also the length of pull. He of course declined to offer a solution.

So If I were to make a suggestion Wen get your pistol title does an SBR which sucks if your like me and wish to cross state lines with it. My suggestion would be the following.
1). Use a pistol Caliber upper
2). Use some sort of “travel limiter” on the stock locking it in at under the maximum distance allowed.

When I had mentioned that to him he again declined to tell me if it was the correct thing to do but he also did not say that it was the incorrect thing to do and as we all know no answer is also an answer.

So don’t take my word for it I’m not a professional at this I am not an attorney but if you do have a pistol caliber upper and you can pick yourself up some travel limiters I would do so if this helps you make a stronger argument that this is intended to be a pistol and not a rifle.


Thanks for acknowledging my concern. This is a Regional Field Agent making felons out of thousands of Honey Badger owners - look who signed the notice.

The same agent also requested examples of 2 additional Q pistols. These use the SBA3 brace which happens to be in use on tens of thousands of AR Pistols including the one I gave my brother recently.

Intentions are presently unclear. The timing and the source of this “determination” are suspect. I am very seriously considering filing a Form 1 but continuing to run my SBPDW. My thought is it will be a Pistol if I carry it across a border, but will be a SBR in Texas where it lives 99% of the time. I have family on the other side of the border and I never know when my bike will point to Louisiana without stopping at home on the way.

Sucks that it fits so nicely in my saddlebag.


I would chime in on this one because not everybody has an ATF agents business was card And if they do have a ATF agents business card it is most likely because it was handed to them when they did something wrong. So if anybody can make this phone call without racing to the eyebrows I get to do it. As I mentioned he never said yes he only said no or he decided to remain silent and silence is not an answer it’s also an answer or at least it would give more plausibility to the argument that this is a pistol if it’s a 9 mm 10 mm or 45. A pistol size AR10 in 6.5CM or AR’s in 300aac 5.56, 6mmARC are going to be difficult to pass off as a pistol. Sure Thompson makes a 30/30 pistol but it’s single fire, even the manually operated side charging AR pistols can be caused a pistol way easier then my AR300AAC blackout. I have two lower receivers for my 300 upper high have the one that is registered as an SBR and the other one is a pistol because it does matter where I’m at with them in the state or traveling outside the state lines.

To be honest when my .300aac travels over state lines it’s already had the gas tube removed so I can call it a straight pull bolt action pistol since semi auto rifles and pistols aren’t allowed for hunting in my home state of Pennsylvania.

As far as throwing an AR in your saddlebag, to me that sounds a bit overkill and if you were to draw that weapon out and use it while they may be legal to do so you’re going to hard time proving in a court of law that you weren’t going out looking for trouble. Because that’s one of the murky areas of law that people have to realize yes you may have may have a right to defend yourself however if you’re out in the motorcycle carrying around a piece of hardware like that it seems to be a bit over the top and any prosecutor do you have an easy time making a case out of that. Let me also say that the chance of hitting the ground is pretty high as a motorcyclist I know I got half of a leg I lost it in a motorcycle mechanic for 19 years I have seen every type of accident you can imagine I see the aftermath of twisted steal every week.

Your average AR build with a folding buffer tube or a buffer Louis AR like a SIG Copperhead is approaching 1100 upwards of 1600 dollars. How are you going to secure your firearm when you are not on the bike I’m assuming you’re gonna go in a restaurant or you gonna carry your saddle bag with you. So if I can make a suggestion one that will keep you out of trouble if you did have to use your firearm or at least reduce your chances of being seen as some Rambo like figure running around with an AR 15 shoved in his saddle bag. I give you KelTec’s PMR30. Order up that kit from M*CARBO and either have them install it at the factory or do it yourself. Because let’s be honest here I got 91 rounds of .22wmr which at 15<50 feet has the ballistics of a 5.56 at 315 yards. If you feel confident engaging a target at 315 with your AR you can do it with a PMR30.

Personally I’m looking to get a B&T universal pistol brace for my PMR30, it’s an appropriate weapon for most ever realistic scenario that you’re going to encounter. And to be honest it’s gonna be a lot more usable than even an AR pistol. It’s easily deployed and can be tucked under a coat offering the element of surprise. It also cost far less if you unfortunately meet the same fate as I and hit the ground at 45<60mph.

PMR30 with 5 mags 150 rounds weighs less then a folder SBR

Here’s a video from MaxHeadspace9mm



Regarding the ATF connection, I have a great one. I know him through church, and I put up his daughter for a summer when she started college in Houston. He was former FBI and worked for the BATFE AZ field office.

But this determination carries the signature of a Massachusetts Field Agent - I promise you the AZ office agrees the Mass Agent is dead wrong. Different regions interpret the regs very differently. AZ probably has the best office in the country.

Hoot. I have a habit of being vague when discussing my AR Pistol. First, I’m discussing my 9.25", side charging, Foxtrot Mike with SB Tactical PDW Brace. It is more accurate than my Sub 2000 and it is presently first grab for Home Defense.

The saddlebag is on my Honda Valkyrie Interstate - lockable hard bag.

It can pull truck gun duty. I carr6 one of several pistols most of the time. I like to believe that a bad guy that fails to stop me from getting to my truck/bike has failed badly. My Sub 2000 was purpose built for the unlikely event that I find myself in a position to stop a deadly threat because police have not responded.

After a little better than 10 years of carry, I will tell you that access to a definitive stopping tool has motivated me to avoid engaging folks that didn’t have to be engaged. I have NEVER brandished. And, this is the longest run without a physical altercation in my life. My pistol makes me smarter and better at avoiding/diffusing bad situations. I was simply born without whatever causes fear and I never backed down before carry made it serious. (disclosure: I ran from folks shooting at me twice before I graduated college - I do register survival like the next guy)

A couple years back, there is no doubt my 1911 prevented a roadside altercation. Road raging butthole behind me in traffic pushed me hard enough that I was going to give him what he was begging for. When my boot hit the pavement, the weight of the 1911 on my hip stopped me in my tracks. Instantly, my eyes stopped glowing red and I returned to my seat in the truck where I directed my gf to get the police on the phone. The police never got there but moron followed me and continued his taunts for about 5 miles after traffic broke up.

Finally re Twisted Steel … my moment of stupidity in 2013 cost me a finger and required a custom built strong hand and knee. It earned me a Helicopter ride I don’t recall at all. And it sent my Dan Wesson Vbob skidding across pavement when it escaped the mangled aluminum saddlebag I ran on my Triumph Tiger. I have the Tiger in my back yard and I’ll rebuild it eventually.


Their straw man worked. My real feelings can be found in the comment section of this video.


What bothers me about the SBR/pistol argument is to use “shorties” (those Under 5’5”) a 10” pistol with buffer tube is proportional to our body size, when I have a Carbine at ot greater than 16” it begins to feel like I’m toting around a bench gun.
I think this entire thing is just input dated and was applicable for a time that doesn’t exist and if the ATF were honest they’d admit that the reasoning was under completely false pretences then. Battling gangsters my lily white AR53, but then again the people who restricted SBR’s and suppressors were the same people who made cannabis illegal and the same folks that made it ok to criminally prosecute LGBT people. That entire era ruined our country for nearly a hundred plus years.

BTW haven’t been around much now that I started PT, my therapist has been pushing me to the Max here, I swear this lady is a sadist and just likes to inflict pain,

Anyway I hope this situation works out cause if not I have to register my GF’s AR9 under our trust. So glad I set up the trust, best decision made.


Unless she is incompetent … you’ll be putting her on your birthday/holiday card lists before you know it. Her willingness to endure your pissed off energy will make you substantially stronger, substantially more mobile and substantially more independent in the very near future. So, curse me for this, but I’m happy for your pain and wish you the all the gain in the world. Lean in sister - lean in.

I think the straw man (brace attack) has been been abandoned. This is good news. I think the true target is the entirety of the firearms aftermarket. If BATFE gets away with demanding wholistic review of mods, the firearms aftermarket industry including MCARBO is done. Q had to send in two firearms sporting a SB Tactical Brace. Regardless of whether BATFE approves or disapproves - the industry is dead.

Consider your own collection. Wholistic approval will require two builds for every incremental modification 'cause BATFE won’t “know it 'till they see it” and they can’t be bothered with returning firearms after evaluation.

I’m busy pushing my concern to NRA’s Board of Directors with assistance of a friend’s personal relationship with a board member. To date I can confirm the NRA is on the case and helped get the 60 day stay. I have not been able to confirm that we’re even watching for the “wholistic” knock out punch.

The straw man is old school, but effective.


As BATFE is the headliner, rumors are simmering that Kaliforniastan has approached them (BATFE) demanding they re-classify 80% lowers as firearms, as per current CA. statutes. (This would require all 80% lowers to include a serial number, caliber, manufacturer etc. and be sold thru an FFL with BGC’s et.al. nation wide.) Anyone else heard any more about this?


I can tell you I’ve seen the concept clowned several times. Given that I can build a 12guage pistol and or rifle with pipes and parts sold at home depot - y’all will need to kiss indoor plumbing good bye.

But, the Miller v. Becerra case being heard this week presently holds promise that you may once again enjoy select protections guaranteed by the constitution.


I changed my SBR’s Caliber a little over months ago right before my surgery, can’t remember what form it was but I was able to add 9mm 5.56 and 6mmARC though I don’t have a 6mmARC upper yet. It was originally registered as .300AAC. I got an second stripped pistol lower to so I can travel out of state cause for some reason you can take your suppressor anywhere that allows them without notifying the ATF but you can’t do the same with a SBR rifle. The ATF has also said no intentional shouldering of a brace to the shoulders how ever its 100% legal to stick the butt of the brace to you forehead or crotch and shoot blindly down range. Thankfully DOT doesn’t use the same logics, it’s ok to drink beer and drive just no hard liquor.

So I noticed they focused on “pull length”. I preemptively installed limiters on my GF’s brace it’s set all the way in with a pull length of 11 1/8” with the Law Folding Stock Adapter. Since it’s well under 12<14 inches they can’t claim it’s a rifle and being pistol caliber it seems more plausible to call it a pistol. Not that I want to agree with the ATF but when I see AR’s like my SBR with full out rifle scope light, and heavy 30 round mag filled with 220 grain subsonics and a suppressor it’s hard to argue your intention was to shoot it like a pistol not a rifle. It’s like ordering a porterhouse and potato and cheesecake cheesecake for dinner but drinking a Diet Coke cause your on a diet. So not defending the ATF but I can see why they would take a holistic view and not just say ok anything with a single part makes it not a rifle despite being rifle caliber with the optics of a rifle.

What we need is clarity, give a firm number saying pull can’t exceed (fill in blank length) and can’t be adjustable. Limit Caliber too say semi auto pistols must be chambered in 9mm 10mm .45 but large format bolt/straight pull/break open pistols can be chamber in both rifle and pistol calibers. They need defined guidelines for people stays with in. They also need to drop the interstate travel restrictions, if a state doesn’t have restrictions then you should be able to travel there with your SBR if you have to pass through a restricted state or city the stipulation should be something reasonable like seperate upper from lower and mags have to be empty. Sure you can assemble it in under 7 seconds and with a speed loader load a mag in under 10 seconds so it’s really arbitrary restriction but I’d give them that for lifting travel restrictions. Cause right not it’s easier for a felon on house arrest to get permission to travle out of state then for you to take your SBR over state lines.

I know many of here don’t want to compromise how ever I’d be willing to agree to limitations so as long as they are defined clearly and if they met us part of the way and lifted travel restrictions. While I would like all NFA restrictions lifted I could agree them if they cleared the air and also sped up the process, why does it take a year to get a suppressor approved for someone who already has a SBR and suppressor on a trust. They should take you 200 dollar bribe rubber stamp your application and be happy that your wife agreed to let you buy another can, so many people don’t buy or register because of the wait time make it faster and I think we wouldn’t mind as much.


You got that right!

Infringement is plain and clear in meaning.

Three restrictions I can handle are:

  1. clear ownership of all projectiles passing my muzzle. This means I’m liable for intentional, accidental and negligent results of that projectile.

  2. complete ban on all violence with the exception of violence judged to be a. defensively justified or b. reasonable for the harvesting of proteins. So a history of poor judgement in the distribution of violence disqualifies ownership.

  3. a private land owner can make further restrictions on their property where that property is clearly identified.


Defund BATFE. Blow up the NFA.

Now IFF a legislator doesn’t believe modern man can survive this freedom, the constitution is clear on two alternative paths to amendment. I continue to be baffled why the legislators screaming to defy our constitution have not even attempted a correction. I’m equally baffled by judges that fail to recognize plain and clear infringements for what they are.

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A judge once told me that a compromise is when both parties are unhappy. Sadly if we don’t come to an agreement we will loose the window of opportunity to prevent an all out ban. I don’t like it either but I don’t like the alternative.


That’ll only happen if the constitution fails and this nation falls. Hate for that to happen, and I recognize that there are forces pushing towards this future.

I’ll be fighting for this Great Nation.


Found a youtuber that is actually arguing my point - yay. But, this is the first I’ve seen or heard of him. Pop over and give him a like.


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